July 10, 2011 Meeting

   1 Jul 10 22:11:18 <BLUG_Fred>	well it's 14:11UTC for me.. so let's start
   2 Jul 10 22:11:29 <cdrigby>	Perhaps we should just post the log. Perhaps w/ a summary of what occurred for faster reading.
   3 Jul 10 22:11:40 <BLUG_Fred>	Agenda for the day was emailed but I'll copy & paste
   4 Jul 10 22:11:48 <BLUG_Fred>	- Sponsorship & goodies
   5 Jul 10 22:11:48 <BLUG_Fred>	- Wiki registration and updates needed
   6 Jul 10 22:11:48 <BLUG_Fred>	- Registration script (javascript gurus, please join us!)
   7 Jul 10 22:11:48 <BLUG_Fred>	- Ideas on specificities of our collaboration with the FSF
   8 Jul 10 22:11:48 <BLUG_Fred>	- Upcoming announcement writing help request
   9 Jul 10 22:12:00 <BLUG_Fred>	for the 1st item i'm really updating the group
  10 Jul 10 22:12:34 <BLUG_Fred>	we have 3 sponsors and 5 media partners at the moment, and I am still in discussion with 3/4 I would say
  11 Jul 10 22:13:00 <BLUG_Fred>	with 2 which I feel confident about and then the others will be 'extra'
  12 Jul 10 22:13:14 <BLUG_Fred>	we have raised enough money to ship team packs to 200 teams
  13 Jul 10 22:13:45 <mike_FFSUK>	How many teams reg'd last year?
  14 Jul 10 22:13:48 <BLUG_Fred>	last week we mentioned issuing a call for sponsors, but as I was putting it in my email it would be more to help local teams than SFI
  15 Jul 10 22:13:55 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: ~500
  16 Jul 10 22:14:20 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: we had a cut off date which is 2 months before the Day: 
  17 Jul 10 22:14:29 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: that's usually when we start shipping
  18 Jul 10 22:14:35 <cdrigby>	Singapore has made a good start on getting local sponsors.
  19 Jul 10 22:14:51 <BLUG_Fred>	2 months gives both us and Canonical the assurance packages will arrive on time
  20 Jul 10 22:14:59 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: that's great
  21 Jul 10 22:15:02 <mike_FFSUK>	Which is 17th July, next weekend!
  22 Jul 10 22:15:20 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: yes.. well last year we pushed it to end of July
  23 Jul 10 22:15:33 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: and we had 100 registrations the 1st day
  24 Jul 10 22:16:03 <BLUG_Fred>	so probably cut off date will be July 30th or around that date
  25 Jul 10 22:16:10 <cdrigby>	ok
  26 Jul 10 22:16:40 <BLUG_Fred>	last year SFD was on 18th and I don't think we had issues with delivery (except for people providing wrong address or courier company not knowing the address)
  27 Jul 10 22:17:11 <BLUG_Fred>	so we are on a very similar schedule
  28 Jul 10 22:17:49 <BLUG_Fred>	Marcos was mentioning he was looking for a venue for example
  29 Jul 10 22:17:53 <BLUG_Fred>	(more than $$)
  30 Jul 10 22:18:00 <BLUG_Fred>	(or €€ or ..)
  31 Jul 10 22:18:28 <BLUG_Fred>	and we do get some regional companies getting in touch with us sometimes looking to participate in their local SFD
  32 Jul 10 22:19:00 <BLUG_Fred>	so i was thinking to write something in that direction to give ideas (provide your office, drinks, etc?) to both sponsors and teams
  33 Jul 10 22:19:47 <BLUG_Fred>	it could be also culture performances (free culture here we go!), hoping teams can find local artist believing in free culture
  34 Jul 10 22:19:54 <BLUG_Fred>	or maybe other stuff
  35 Jul 10 22:20:19 <BLUG_Fred>	anyway.. that was the topic of last week and we can cover it in the 'upcoming announcements' section
  36 Jul 10 22:20:35 <BLUG_Fred>	so next item is related to registration and wiki
  37 Jul 10 22:20:53 <BLUG_Fred>	the wiki is ready for 2011 and hopefully bug-free now
  38 Jul 10 22:21:07 <BLUG_Fred>	it's been ready for a while but hidden and then there was some access rights issues
  39 Jul 10 22:21:24 <BLUG_Fred>	so any team can create their team page now (and some are doing it)
  40 Jul 10 22:21:54 <BLUG_Fred>	logo has been made easily available, i wrote a blog post and we will modify the frontpage tomorrow to highlight it more
  41 Jul 10 22:22:13 <BLUG_Fred>	it seems everyone is ok without the continents as well.
  42 Jul 10 22:22:36 <BLUG_Fred>	i have been asking people (and writing in the wiki) to create a team page under  the city page
  43 Jul 10 22:23:07 <BLUG_Fred>	each year we have issues with some teams having a hard time to (late) register their team in a city where the main page is occupied by someone else
  44 Jul 10 22:23:45 <BLUG_Fred>	i haven't decided whether it will be a strict policy or not, though it is already "strongly recommended"
  45 Jul 10 22:23:55 <BLUG_Fred>	do you have any feedback on this?
  46 Jul 10 22:24:23 <pockeylam>	should we give them instructions like they can go to irc or send email to ask?
  47 Jul 10 22:24:29 <cdrigby>	I'm ok w/ it. We will be Singapore/SingaporeTeam, or something like that, tho, as we are really only one team for the whole city/country
  48 Jul 10 22:24:39 <BLUG_Fred>	pockeylam: yes we have... i do mention it whenever i can
  49 Jul 10 22:24:58 <mike_FFSUK>	Does country mean ISO code like UK or full name?
  50 Jul 10 22:25:01 <pockeylam>	if they have doubts of the wiki name, they can send an email to sfd discuss to ask?
  51 Jul 10 22:25:01 <pockeylam>	e.g.
  52 Jul 10 22:25:10 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: yeah.. some places are like this and then who knows, suddenly a smaller group decides to celebrate
  53 Jul 10 22:25:21 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: full name
  54 Jul 10 22:25:33 <BLUG_Fred>	well it's been full name for as long as I can remember
  55 Jul 10 22:25:43 <BLUG_Fred>	and that's how people have done it again this year
  56 Jul 10 22:25:58 <BLUG_Fred>	i would also need help on 2 things
  57 Jul 10 22:26:07 <cdrigby>	So we still need to include country, I assume. Therefore, Singapore would be "Singapore/Singapore/SingaporeTeam"?
  58 Jul 10 22:26:13 <BLUG_Fred>	1 page needs to be updated... i will probably do it, but 'late'
  59 Jul 10 22:26:13 <mike_FFSUK>	Is it possible to list the recently created pages?
  60 Jul 10 22:26:23 <pockeylam>	BLUG_Fred, good enough then
  61 Jul 10 22:26:26 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: i think you should remove City or Country ;-)
  62 Jul 10 22:26:50 <cdrigby>	OK - just Singapore/SingaporeTeam, then.
  63 Jul 10 22:26:50 <BLUG_Fred>	http://wiki.softwarefreedomday.org/CreateYourTeampage
  64 Jul 10 22:27:08 <BLUG_Fred>	this page needs to be updated.. as it shows continents
  65 Jul 10 22:27:40 <BLUG_Fred>	maybe simplified as well.. not sure what's possible to do (I didn't write it - it's very complete but people don't read... they want quick quick qquikc now)
  66 Jul 10 22:27:41 <cdrigby>	Would you like me to update it? I could do that later today.
  67 Jul 10 22:27:50 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: that would be nice
  68 Jul 10 22:27:59 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: yes
  69 Jul 10 22:28:05 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: there are 2 ways
  70 Jul 10 22:28:07 <cdrigby>	OK - I'm on it.
  71 Jul 10 22:28:25 <mike_FFSUK>	The image on that page could do with updating, its from 2010 with continent.
  72 Jul 10 22:28:42 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: you have the Recent Changes button in the horizontal menu under the SFD (new) logo
  73 Jul 10 22:28:45 <BLUG_Fred>	top of the page
  74 Jul 10 22:29:00 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: yes.. that was why i was asking
  75 Jul 10 22:29:27 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: else you can also go into your 'settings' (text link in the upper right corner) and subscribe to the whole wiki
  76 Jul 10 22:29:43 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: then you get an email each time someone changes a page
  77 Jul 10 22:29:47 <BLUG_Fred>	on the whole wiki
  78 Jul 10 22:30:15 <cdrigby>	I will work on the page and post to marketing mailing list when done so that others can review. Make sense?
  79 Jul 10 22:30:26 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: it does.. thanks a lot
  80 Jul 10 22:30:41 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: it's in settings - notification
  81 Jul 10 22:31:07 <cdrigby>	my pleasure. Just looked at the page. Might run into tomorrow finishing. But will advise.
  82 Jul 10 22:31:20 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: whole wiki is * in the box in the 2nd part of the form
  83 Jul 10 22:31:23 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, thanks
  84 Jul 10 22:31:33 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: yes.. it's actually quite some work
  85 Jul 10 22:31:59 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: i looked already and thought it was just a screenshot but then it's a lot more, and this is also why I was talking about try to make it "simple"
  86 Jul 10 22:32:13 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: you're welcome. I subscribe to the wiki, so I see all changes
  87 Jul 10 22:32:21 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: sometimes I leave comments on pages
  88 Jul 10 22:32:30 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: and i move and delete stuff
  89 Jul 10 22:32:37 <BLUG_Fred>	which only me can at the moment
  90 Jul 10 22:33:06 <BLUG_Fred>	some people do have issues sometimes and create multiple pages, or at the wrong place or ...
  91 Jul 10 22:33:17 <BLUG_Fred>	you can sign your comments with @SIG@
  92 Jul 10 22:33:17 <cdrigby>	Indeed. I'll do my best to simplify. I think to work on the Singapore Team page in tandem as I rewrite the page. That way I will have my own work on a team page as a template
  93 Jul 10 22:33:25 <BLUG_Fred>	it leaves your wiki name and the date/time
  94 Jul 10 22:33:55 <BLUG_Fred>	and  I have some contact information on my wiki name page so people can get in touch with me for further help
  95 Jul 10 22:34:00 <BLUG_Fred>	(well I think I do)
  96 Jul 10 22:34:00 <mike_FFSUK>	Back on the wiki structure, you know that I don't like having to have another sub level of 'Team'.
  97 Jul 10 22:34:12 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: right
  98 Jul 10 22:34:43 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: well another way for those people like you is to keep a spot on the top of the page with a message to potential team leaders
  99 Jul 10 22:35:07 <mike_FFSUK>	The URLs are massive.
 100 Jul 10 22:35:09 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: but at least that they see it's possible to register another team and somewhat indicate what are their options
 101 Jul 10 22:35:21 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: you have a shortcut page
 102 Jul 10 22:35:41 <BLUG_Fred>	so you would end up with wiki.softwarefreedomday.org/s/manchester if you want
 103 Jul 10 22:35:50 <mike_FFSUK>	What would be better would be to use Categories for pages and just have one level.
 104 Jul 10 22:36:24 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: what kind of categories?
 105 Jul 10 22:36:41 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: what's wrong with wiki.softwarefreedomday.org/s/manchester
 106 Jul 10 22:36:47 <BLUG_Fred>	it hardly gets shorter
 107 Jul 10 22:36:51 <mike_FFSUK>	Country, City. Then auto-index on that.
 108 Jul 10 22:37:58 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: don't you need the category word in category in moinmoin
 109 Jul 10 22:37:58 <BLUG_Fred>	?
 110 Jul 10 22:38:19 <BLUG_Fred>	i'm not moinmoin admin by choice or desire ;-)
 111 Jul 10 22:38:27 <mike_FFSUK>	:)
 112 Jul 10 22:38:40 <BLUG_Fred>	(and as I was told not long ago , I am underqualified)
 113 Jul 10 22:38:57 <mike_FFSUK>	Just thinking what I'm going to use for country for the Manchester event.
 114 Jul 10 22:39:18 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: well it hasn't been created yet... so I guess UK is ok ;-)
 115 Jul 10 22:39:26 <mike_FFSUK>	:)
 116 Jul 10 22:39:27 <BLUG_Fred>	USA uses USA
 117 Jul 10 22:39:35 <BLUG_Fred>	not United States of ....
 118 Jul 10 22:40:10 <mike_FFSUK>	Exactly.
 119 Jul 10 22:40:12 <cdrigby>	Proposal for countries w/ states, provinces, etc: "city" includes region. For example, my current city would be "Charlottesville, VA"
 120 Jul 10 22:40:12 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: are you a moinmoin expert?
 121 Jul 10 22:40:23 <mike_FFSUK>	No.
 122 Jul 10 22:40:27 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: so USA uses states
 123 Jul 10 22:40:34 <cdrigby>	Yes
 124 Jul 10 22:40:47 <BLUG_Fred>	because you guys have same city names all over the country
 125 Jul 10 22:40:48 <cdrigby>	Must, because most states have cities with the same name.
 126 Jul 10 22:40:56 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: hehe yes
 127 Jul 10 22:40:58 <cdrigby>	exact
 128 Jul 10 22:41:20 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: i think you're the only ones (I know China has a few as well, but less common I believe)
 129 Jul 10 22:41:38 <BLUG_Fred>	the Region template should still be there I think
 130 Jul 10 22:41:58 <BLUG_Fred>	no, the State template is
 131 Jul 10 22:42:30 <BLUG_Fred>	anyway if you know anyone willing to help moderating and helping out lost souls on our wiki
 132 Jul 10 22:42:49 <BLUG_Fred>	i'll send a separate email about this, to see if we have volunteers later
 133 Jul 10 22:43:15 <BLUG_Fred>	so we're all clear on the wiki stuff right?
 134 Jul 10 22:43:27 <cdrigby>	OK. Since the word "state" will not be visible in the URL, it can be province, ragione, etc. Example: Italy/Veneto/Venice
 135 Jul 10 22:43:55 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: but there is no need to make the URL longer elsewhere
 136 Jul 10 22:44:14 <cdrigby>	I can probably help w/ wiki support, since I'll know the structure fairly well by the time I've gotten the team registration instructions done. My response time may not be great. Will use email.
 137 Jul 10 22:44:19 <BLUG_Fred>	i agree with mike_FFSUK that we end up with very long URLs if we force everyone to use Region
 138 Jul 10 22:44:20 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, I've sub'd to all pages and will help out a little.
 139 Jul 10 22:44:33 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: thanks
 140 Jul 10 22:45:09 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: i need to add you in some special group so you can also move and delete
 141 Jul 10 22:45:23 <cdrigby>	BLUG_Fred: OK, I think I understand. The URL scheme is flexible and needs only the levels used by a given country
 142 Jul 10 22:45:32 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: yes.. 
 143 Jul 10 22:45:40 <cdrigby>	OK, got it.
 144 Jul 10 22:45:58 <mike_FFSUK>	In the wiki is @PAGE@ some wiki magic?
 145 Jul 10 22:45:58 <BLUG_Fred>	it's a wiki after all, but it should make for short URLs as much as possible and easy to navigate
 146 Jul 10 22:46:31 <BLUG_Fred>	yes.. when you create a page with @PAGE@ it will put the url after wiki.softwarefreedomday.org
 147 Jul 10 22:46:41 <BLUG_Fred>	we use that in the template titles
 148 Jul 10 22:46:52 <BLUG_Fred>	you can also removed it and only write the title you want
 149 Jul 10 22:47:10 <BLUG_Fred>	some people take the template as a questionnaire and leave the "questions" sometimes
 150 Jul 10 22:47:36 <BLUG_Fred>	or they remove the category tags at the bottom making their page hard to find through categories
 151 Jul 10 22:47:38 <BLUG_Fred>	or... 
 152 Jul 10 22:47:43 <BLUG_Fred>	you'll see
 153 Jul 10 22:47:46 <BLUG_Fred>	;-)
 154 Jul 10 22:48:02 <mike_FFSUK>	Creating a new country it gives
 155 Jul 10 22:48:07 <mike_FFSUK>	= SFD @PAGE@ =
 156 Jul 10 22:48:18 <BLUG_Fred>	i have to admit my first year doing SFD I really struggled with moinmoin.. couldn't even figure out how to add a graphic in the page
 157 Jul 10 22:48:42 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: i don't remember exactly
 158 Jul 10 22:49:10 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, :) OK.
 159 Jul 10 22:49:28 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: right
 160 Jul 10 22:49:42 <cdrigby>	Yes, moinmoin has baffled me as well at times. But there DOES seem to be a pattern to its madness. {;->
 161 Jul 10 22:49:46 <BLUG_Fred>	and then when you save it automatically writes in the page title SFD 2011/Country
 162 Jul 10 22:50:05 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: yes. it's very powerful .. well you can do lots of stuff
 163 Jul 10 22:50:11 <BLUG_Fred>	there is a learning curve
 164 Jul 10 22:50:49 <BLUG_Fred>	and the Action menu is so not intuitive
 165 Jul 10 22:51:06 <BLUG_Fred>	we use Moinmoin at GNOME as well
 166 Jul 10 22:51:34 <BLUG_Fred>	it's just hard on people using it once a year
 167 Jul 10 22:52:21 <BLUG_Fred>	any other wiki question?
 168 Jul 10 22:52:23 <cdrigby>	Makes sense. Is it OK if I experiment a little while I write up the instructions? I can always delete my experiments later.
 169 Jul 10 22:52:30 <mike_FFSUK>	I can confirm that @PAGE@ is (one time) replaced by the bit after w.sfd.org/ .
 170 Jul 10 22:52:32 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: sure
 171 Jul 10 22:52:45 <cdrigby>	cool
 172 Jul 10 22:52:47 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: and @SIG@ is your name + date
 173 Jul 10 22:53:08 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, its starting to make sense. ;)
 174 Jul 10 22:53:19 <BLUG_Fred>	i need to create a moderator group and put you in it
 175 Jul 10 22:53:47 <BLUG_Fred>	i love the templates also.. it s really cool, but most people wonder what is all this markup ;-)
 176 Jul 10 22:54:16 <BLUG_Fred>	i would add moinmoin grows on you
 177 Jul 10 22:54:19 <BLUG_Fred>	;-)
 178 Jul 10 22:54:34 <cdrigby>	agreed
 179 Jul 10 22:55:03 <BLUG_Fred>	but to admin and manage it.. it's a bit too much for my use 
 180 Jul 10 22:55:18 <BLUG_Fred>	so next topic is registration
 181 Jul 10 22:55:24 <BLUG_Fred>	it's of course linked
 182 Jul 10 22:55:39 <BLUG_Fred>	i finished all the javascript form validation thingy 
 183 Jul 10 22:55:40 <cdrigby>	yes - it is a full time job. Powerful tool for a large site, clearly.
 184 Jul 10 22:55:48 <BLUG_Fred>	this year we're finally moving away from the old code
 185 Jul 10 22:56:00 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, cool.
 186 Jul 10 22:56:04 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: it also can do multisite as well ;-)
 187 Jul 10 22:56:25 <BLUG_Fred>	the reason is that we didn't support UTF8 and 'holes' in the URLs
 188 Jul 10 22:56:36 <BLUG_Fred>	(spaces i mean - you would have understood)
 189 Jul 10 22:56:50 <BLUG_Fred>	and since I didn't know perl.. well i am rewriting everything
 190 Jul 10 22:57:46 <mike_FFSUK>	Spaces in URLs are bad.
 191 Jul 10 22:57:46 <cdrigby>	Yep - lots of work!
 192 Jul 10 22:57:57 <BLUG_Fred>	I've pulled all my hair over javascript, was told I was underqualified in ##javascript on freenode (probably someone who thought I was getting paid to do the job, and spent hours ... wasting time)
 193 Jul 10 22:58:12 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: well, we do have them in our wiki
 194 Jul 10 22:58:24 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: and city names with 'ç~etc
 195 Jul 10 22:58:30 <BLUG_Fred>	or even people's name
 196 Jul 10 22:59:08 <BLUG_Fred>	so i used to get names with missing letters in some countries and had to figure out the right spelling before being able to use the file (or send it to Canonical)
 197 Jul 10 22:59:14 <BLUG_Fred>	so no more this
 198 Jul 10 22:59:43 <BLUG_Fred>	now i still need to write some python stuff to keep the same architecture as we had. I think it was quite well thought out
 199 Jul 10 23:00:04 <BLUG_Fred>	1 registration = 1 separate file with time stamp in case of issue later
 200 Jul 10 23:00:19 <BLUG_Fred>	and then concatenation and export to xls format at the end
 201 Jul 10 23:00:28 <BLUG_Fred>	csv actually
 202 Jul 10 23:00:33 <BLUG_Fred>	not xls.. sorry
 203 Jul 10 23:00:52 <BLUG_Fred>	i suck a bit less in python, so that should be faster
 204 Jul 10 23:01:10 <BLUG_Fred>	i would still be happy to have a python guru I could ask question too sometimes... if we have one
 205 Jul 10 23:01:37 <BLUG_Fred>	(and yes I maintain a python application.. don't ask me how that happened! ;-) )
 206 Jul 10 23:01:51 <BLUG_Fred>	so no python guru in the channel?
 207 Jul 10 23:02:07 <BLUG_Fred>	well.. i'll write a separate email too.. to both marketing and webbers
 208 Jul 10 23:02:08 <cdrigby>	BLUG_Fred: Sorry, but I do need to leave in about 15 minutes. If we have not finished the meeting, can you post the log so that I can read what I missed?
 209 Jul 10 23:02:17 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: i'll post the log
 210 Jul 10 23:02:24 <cdrigby>	Thnx
 211 Jul 10 23:02:25 <BLUG_Fred>	last topic is the FSF/SFD relationship
 212 Jul 10 23:02:55 <BLUG_Fred>	you read the issue at hand, FSF is not so happy that we encourage distribution of non-free distro
 213 Jul 10 23:03:28 <mike_FFSUK>	Does the Ubuntu CD contain non-free software?
 214 Jul 10 23:03:40 <BLUG_Fred>	we are having an excellent communication and looking how to somehow continue distributing the 'famous distros that everyone want' while telling people non-free is bad
 215 Jul 10 23:03:52 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: most distro do: the kernel does
 216 Jul 10 23:04:19 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: default install, except the kernel no (not that I know)
 217 Jul 10 23:04:24 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, Debian removed the non-free kernel bits, yay! \o/
 218 Jul 10 23:04:33 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: wow that's great
 219 Jul 10 23:04:47 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: well i think now the hardware people buy is more and more 'open'
 220 Jul 10 23:05:19 <BLUG_Fred>	one suggestion we got from Richard last year was to ask team leaders to put a sticker on the Ubuntu CDs "This is non-free software - DANGER!"
 221 Jul 10 23:05:34 <BLUG_Fred>	I don't remember the exact wording, i can find it
 222 Jul 10 23:05:39 <mike_FFSUK>	The non-free firmware is packaged in Debian (non-free) so you can get it and use it in the installer.
 223 Jul 10 23:05:58 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, I like that! :)
 224 Jul 10 23:06:01 <BLUG_Fred>	the problem with the wording is that... if too short, it's not very clear, if too long it covers the whole CD so.. 
 225 Jul 10 23:06:25 <BLUG_Fred>	fedora has a script to remove them as well I think
 226 Jul 10 23:06:54 <BLUG_Fred>	either way we cannot ask Canonical to send CDs and then tell people to cover their CDs with scary stickers
 227 Jul 10 23:06:55 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, in Manchester Free Software I thought about doing similar like advising them and including a slip of paper explaining.
 228 Jul 10 23:07:11 <BLUG_Fred>	so it should either be funny (and short) or we need a better plan
 229 Jul 10 23:07:36 <BLUG_Fred>	i mentioned a few things to Richard.. let me grab that email
 230 Jul 10 23:08:26 <mike_FFSUK>	What about a PDF with several copies of a message describing the problem so people can print out and put in the CD holders.
 231 Jul 10 23:08:42 <BLUG_Fred>	Right now I'm thinking of something along the line of a compliance workshop for people's hardware, or some well promoted howto/slides to show people how to check if their hardware runs with a fully free distro. I know there are some scripts to remove those binary blobs and that could be a way to keep people using their favorite distro while making it 100% free. It's a bit of work, but a worthwhile endeavor.
 232 Jul 10 23:08:42 <BLUG_Fred>	Also a good presentation template covering the topic and trying to shed light on 3/4 areas (kernel, video drivers, flash, others?) that we would encourage teams to present would be great regardless of the above. This is something we can write, get your review/comments and promote to all those teams.
 233 Jul 10 23:09:56 <BLUG_Fred>	this is what I wrote.. and Richard rightfully answered:
 234 Jul 10 23:09:57 <cdrigby>	I do not want a sticker on the CDs. An insert is fine. 95% of people will ignore this issue anyway. End users rarely care all that much, in my experience.
 235 Jul 10 23:10:00 <BLUG_Fred>	"just having
 236 Jul 10 23:10:00 <BLUG_Fred>	these slides or a workshop would not be adequate because most
 237 Jul 10 23:10:00 <BLUG_Fred>	attendees won't see it.
 238 Jul 10 23:10:00 <BLUG_Fred>	Anything that is to overcome the effect of disks of nonfree distros
 239 Jul 10 23:10:00 <BLUG_Fred>	has to be at least as visible as those disks."
 240 Jul 10 23:10:24 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: you are right.. but we should inform them
 241 Jul 10 23:10:42 <BLUG_Fred>	in fact there is less and less reason to run nonfree stuff (well...)
 242 Jul 10 23:10:54 <cdrigby>	Yes, our mission is to educate, but we do that softly and gently once we have their attention with the superior end result.
 243 Jul 10 23:11:05 <BLUG_Fred>	at least hardware support was a bit + of Ubuntu. I feel this is less of a strong point now
 244 Jul 10 23:11:10 <mike_FFSUK>	I think a slip of paper in the CD jackets would be good enough.
 245 Jul 10 23:11:33 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: i'll get back to Richard and see what he thinks
 246 Jul 10 23:11:33 <cdrigby>	BLUG_Fred: agreed.
 247 Jul 10 23:11:42 <cdrigby>	mike_FFSUK: +1
 248 Jul 10 23:11:47 <BLUG_Fred>	i also feel it's not that intrusive and won't upset Canonical neither
 249 Jul 10 23:11:56 <mike_FFSUK>	I would like us to ship lots of different distro's include Debian an gNewSense but I guess that isn't going to happen.
 250 Jul 10 23:12:13 <BLUG_Fred>	well this is a difficult thing
 251 Jul 10 23:12:30 <BLUG_Fred>	SFI doesn't have enough funding to ship 20K CDs
 252 Jul 10 23:12:33 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, that's what I mean, its a good compromise.
 253 Jul 10 23:12:36 <BLUG_Fred>	like Canonical does
 254 Jul 10 23:12:41 <cdrigby>	Gentlemen, sorry, but I am summoned away. I will check back later today to see the rest of the conversation. Good <your time of day here>!
 255 Jul 10 23:12:50 <BLUG_Fred>	cdrigby: ok great.. thanks
 256 Jul 10 23:12:50 <cdrigby>	ciao
 257 Jul 10 23:12:56 <BLUG_Fred>	we're almost done I suppose
 258 Jul 10 23:12:59 <mike_FFSUK>	bye.
 259 Jul 10 23:13:09 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: we are planning to send 3 extra DVDs this year
 260 Jul 10 23:13:15 <cdrigby>	cool. Will be intouch via email shortly.
 261 Jul 10 23:13:21 *	cdrigby has quit (Quit: Leaving)
 262 Jul 10 23:13:27 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: so we can put a lot of stuff on it, but it's for people to get the image and create their own CDs
 263 Jul 10 23:13:43 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, yes.
 264 Jul 10 23:13:50 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: it's really mainly for places in the world where downloading a CD is a pain (and there are a lot of places like this)
 265 Jul 10 23:14:01 <mike_FFSUK>	Yes.
 266 Jul 10 23:14:21 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: in '07 when I did my 1st SFD I distributed a lot of stuff .. we got sponsors and we produced the CDs ourself
 267 Jul 10 23:14:25 <BLUG_Fred>	ourselves
 268 Jul 10 23:15:12 <mike_FFSUK>	Perhaps you could use this an opportunity to encourage Canonical to be more Free Software.
 269 Jul 10 23:15:18 <BLUG_Fred>	so for places like Europe or maybe the US (I hear their Internet is not always great, still lots of dial-ups) we shouldn't even send those 3 DVDs
 270 Jul 10 23:15:56 <mike_FFSUK>	Perhaps list the ISOs of other distro's on the sfd pages?
 271 Jul 10 23:16:09 <BLUG_Fred>	well I see them running a business. Their 'app store' (forgot the real name) sells non-free software now as well 
 272 Jul 10 23:16:31 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: i think we have a page for that, with also all the projects like The OpenDisc
 273 Jul 10 23:16:32 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, yes. :(
 274 Jul 10 23:16:48 <pockeylam>	mike_FFSUK, i think we have a page of the distro isos, but it may not be the updated
 275 Jul 10 23:16:48 <pockeylam>	mike_FFSUK, we will need to update the page
 276 Jul 10 23:17:09 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: but yes we should try to provide some more guidance as the running of the event and what to say
 277 Jul 10 23:17:30 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: our start guide is already very long (which makes me feel we need a "short version")
 278 Jul 10 23:17:44 <mike_FFSUK>	A great problem I have with the Ubuntu CDs is that people get to think it is the only distro.
 279 Jul 10 23:17:55 <BLUG_Fred>	things like what to present and giving them slides with comments so they can easily introduce important topics
 280 Jul 10 23:18:19 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: yes.. other distros don't seem so keen on shipping their CDs
 281 Jul 10 23:18:37 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: for openSUSE it was too late for this year, they said they need to plan for production
 282 Jul 10 23:18:49 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, I think Canonical are cutting down on it too.
 283 Jul 10 23:18:55 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: also SFD is not GNU/Linux Day really
 284 Jul 10 23:19:05 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, agree.
 285 Jul 10 23:19:06 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: yes they are
 286 Jul 10 23:19:37 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: and team should really just explain the matter at hand and show great stuff that anyone can use regardless of their OS
 287 Jul 10 23:19:38 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, OpenDisc, Free Software on Windows and Mac is important. Had that as part of our SFD2010.
 288 Jul 10 23:20:00 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: right.. I see some people have been working on a GTK+ port for cacao (MAC)
 289 Jul 10 23:20:27 <BLUG_Fred>	which is great.. so people can run GIMP natively on MAC without X11 very soon
 290 Jul 10 23:20:41 <BLUG_Fred>	cocoa?
 291 Jul 10 23:20:44 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, people are more likely to try an app like Firefox, LibreOffice, etc on their Windows/Mac than install a new OS.
 292 Jul 10 23:20:48 <BLUG_Fred>	forgot the name also :/
 293 Jul 10 23:20:56 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: exactly
 294 Jul 10 23:20:58 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, that's good, not seen it.
 295 Jul 10 23:21:08 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: and that's how they should do it
 296 Jul 10 23:21:35 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: it's very very new.. unstable and very new
 297 Jul 10 23:21:37 <BLUG_Fred>	;-)
 298 Jul 10 23:21:42 *	BLUG_Fred looking for a link
 299 Jul 10 23:22:13 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: http://gimpfoo.de/2005/10/06/an-early-glance-at-gimp-on-os-x/
 300 Jul 10 23:23:28 <BLUG_Fred>	oh.. that is such an old link
 301 Jul 10 23:23:48 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: sorry.. it just got sucked again on Planet GNOME (*shy* *shy*
 302 Jul 10 23:23:50 <BLUG_Fred>	)
 303 Jul 10 23:23:52 <BLUG_Fred>	i got tricked
 304 Jul 10 23:24:01 <BLUG_Fred>	so i guess the project never made it
 305 Jul 10 23:24:03 <BLUG_Fred>	:(
 306 Jul 10 23:26:05 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, and don't forget *BSD.
 307 Jul 10 23:26:05 *	BLUG_Fred has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
 308 Jul 10 23:26:05 *	Disconnected (Remote host closed socket).
 309 Jul 10 23:26:39 *	Now talking on #sfd-marketing
 310 Jul 10 23:26:40 -NickServ-	You are now identified for BLUG_Fred.
 311 Jul 10 23:26:42 <BLUG_Fred>	back
 312 Jul 10 23:26:49 <BLUG_Fred>	sorry got dumped by the server
 313 Jul 10 23:27:03 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, :)
 314 Jul 10 23:27:12 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, let's move on.
 315 Jul 10 23:27:17 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: yes
 316 Jul 10 23:27:47 <BLUG_Fred>	so next item was the upcoming announcements
 317 Jul 10 23:28:00 <BLUG_Fred>	i think i sent a list also but.. if not here it is:
 318 Jul 10 23:28:35 <BLUG_Fred>	- New SFD logo : DONE
 319 Jul 10 23:28:35 <BLUG_Fred>	- SFD 2010 competition: written - will be published next week
 320 Jul 10 23:28:35 <BLUG_Fred>	- 2011 Sponsors and media partners: 1 article per organization or shall we group them?
 321 Jul 10 23:28:35 <BLUG_Fred>	- Registration opening with team pack description and wiki rules
 322 Jul 10 23:28:35 <BLUG_Fred>	- Call for sponsors in August (see above)
 323 Jul 10 23:28:35 <BLUG_Fred>	- Anything else? 
 324 Jul 10 23:29:04 <mike_FFSUK>	When is the reg opening?
 325 Jul 10 23:29:22 <BLUG_Fred>	so I'm hoping to get the 2010 competition out next week. we also had long discussions with Richard as he is changing the rules on the attributions of the book
 326 Jul 10 23:29:39 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: when i have finished the script
 327 Jul 10 23:29:49 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, ok.
 328 Jul 10 23:29:55 <BLUG_Fred>	i am planning to work on that tomorrow afternoon
 329 Jul 10 23:30:53 <BLUG_Fred>	i need to modify the best event comp announcement to reflect the new 'rule'
 330 Jul 10 23:31:12 <BLUG_Fred>	and email the winners to confirm whether they followed that new rule which they didn't know about
 331 Jul 10 23:31:22 <mike_FFSUK>	What is the new rule?
 332 Jul 10 23:31:36 <BLUG_Fred>	they must have not distributed any non-free distro
 333 Jul 10 23:31:41 <mike_FFSUK>	:)
 334 Jul 10 23:31:48 <BLUG_Fred>	yeah... 
 335 Jul 10 23:32:02 <mike_FFSUK>	So the Ubuntu CDs are a Trojan!
 336 Jul 10 23:32:04 <BLUG_Fred>	but Richard said just to ask them and he will be happy with their word
 337 Jul 10 23:32:29 <BLUG_Fred>	we ask what they distribute in the report submission
 338 Jul 10 23:32:39 <BLUG_Fred>	well.. i will email them as Richard asked... 
 339 Jul 10 23:32:55 <BLUG_Fred>	and we'll stay in a gray area (I will not check the reports)
 340 Jul 10 23:32:56 <mike_FFSUK>	By the way, do you about the "Free System Distribution Guidelines"?
 341 Jul 10 23:33:03 <BLUG_Fred>	no i don t
 342 Jul 10 23:33:10 <BLUG_Fred>	what is it?
 343 Jul 10 23:33:40 <mike_FFSUK>	http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html
 344 Jul 10 23:33:58 <mike_FFSUK>	Does RMS mean this when he says free?
 345 Jul 10 23:34:37 <mike_FFSUK>	Ask him if handing out Debian CDs (these are 100% FS) is OK.
 346 Jul 10 23:35:03 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: if 100% FS then it's ok
 347 Jul 10 23:35:29 <BLUG_Fred>	oh i probably read this page in the past.. just don't remember the details
 348 Jul 10 23:35:50 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: did you read Nina Paley's blog post on free culture and the FSF  recently?
 349 Jul 10 23:36:01 <mike_FFSUK>	No.
 350 Jul 10 23:36:05 <BLUG_Fred>	it's on Planet SFD
 351 Jul 10 23:36:19 <mike_FFSUK>	OK, I like Nina Paley's stuff.
 352 Jul 10 23:36:52 <BLUG_Fred>	it seems it has disappeared from the planet.. damned!
 353 Jul 10 23:37:23 <BLUG_Fred>	me too.. she is nice and what she writes makes sense to me
 354 Jul 10 23:37:32 <BLUG_Fred>	disclaimer: I am not an artist ;-)
 355 Jul 10 23:37:43 <BLUG_Fred>	but that's also why I added her blog to our planet
 356 Jul 10 23:38:03 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: http://blog.ninapaley.com/2011/07/04/rantifesto/
 357 Jul 10 23:39:06 <mike_FFSUK>	Just read the first bit but it is stuff I have been thinking about.
 358 Jul 10 23:39:52 <BLUG_Fred>	do you have any comment on the last 2/3 questions I asked.. 
 359 Jul 10 23:40:05 <BLUG_Fred>	=> shall we have blog + PR or just blog?
 360 Jul 10 23:40:05 <BLUG_Fred>	=> how do we differentiate?
 361 Jul 10 23:40:05 <BLUG_Fred>	=> ideas to kick start the buzz around SFD 2011?
 362 Jul 10 23:40:50 <mike_FFSUK>	Don't know about the first two.
 363 Jul 10 23:40:51 <BLUG_Fred>	the idea is that the blog should have stuff ... often from now until SFD while Press Releases are more important milestones
 364 Jul 10 23:41:32 <BLUG_Fred>	though in today's press I don't feel there is a big difference (unless you're MS or Mozilla)
 365 Jul 10 23:41:51 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: so you have ideas about the 3rd one? :p
 366 Jul 10 23:42:27 <mike_FFSUK>	Push out reg announcement through all channels! :)
 367 Jul 10 23:43:20 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: and then?
 368 Jul 10 23:43:38 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: i was thinking we should have some  kind of news until SFD
 369 Jul 10 23:43:53 <BLUG_Fred>	also there are always people finding out at the last minute
 370 Jul 10 23:44:03 <BLUG_Fred>	well.. it was all those
 371 Jul 10 23:44:28 <BLUG_Fred>	i understand that it s just you and me (and pockey which whom I live .. so we've had this discussion)
 372 Jul 10 23:44:39 <mike_FFSUK>	LOL.
 373 Jul 10 23:45:25 <mike_FFSUK>	Updates from people planning their events?
 374 Jul 10 23:46:07 <mike_FFSUK>	Getting out the feeling this is a worldwide event with other people and teams just like you doing SFD. Inspire people.
 375 Jul 10 23:46:08 <BLUG_Fred>	yes.. that could be cool!
 376 Jul 10 23:46:19 <BLUG_Fred>	like some interview about how they are doing it
 377 Jul 10 23:46:25 <BLUG_Fred>	excellent!
 378 Jul 10 23:46:25 <mike_FFSUK>	Yes.
 379 Jul 10 23:46:45 <BLUG_Fred>	a few photos, and plan and exciting (and workload and... team building)
 380 Jul 10 23:46:57 <BLUG_Fred>	that's a great idea.. let's do that
 381 Jul 10 23:47:01 <mike_FFSUK>	\o/
 382 Jul 10 23:47:57 <mike_FFSUK>	It'll hopefully encourage people to start planning early too.
 383 Jul 10 23:48:20 <BLUG_Fred>	well i guess that's a wonderful conclusion
 384 Jul 10 23:48:28 <BLUG_Fred>	we now need to find writers and editors ;-)
 385 Jul 10 23:48:29 <BLUG_Fred>	:P
 386 Jul 10 23:48:31 <BLUG_Fred>	kidding
 387 Jul 10 23:48:41 <BLUG_Fred>	i guess we're done for my part of the agenda
 388 Jul 10 23:48:48 <BLUG_Fred>	is there anything else you would like to cover?
 389 Jul 10 23:49:53 <mike_FFSUK>	Just Nina's article is interesting.
 390 Jul 10 23:50:58 <mike_FFSUK>	I would add that "Free Culture" isn't distributed with its source either. So you get "flatten" files for images and music, instead of the layered ones the author will use.
 391 Jul 10 23:52:32 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, I'm going to forward the press releases and try to get a buzz going in the UK.
 392 Jul 10 23:53:01 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: yes.. i am reading the comments.
 393 Jul 10 23:53:11 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: it really becomes complicated
 394 Jul 10 23:53:21 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: @SFI we provide the source files ;-)
 395 Jul 10 23:53:27 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: well thanks
 396 Jul 10 23:53:41 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: any suggestion to get the marketing list active again?
 397 Jul 10 23:53:48 <BLUG_Fred>	is everyone on holidays?
 398 Jul 10 23:54:30 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, also being into Free Software doesn't automatically mean you are into Free Culture.
 399 Jul 10 23:55:18 <mike_FFSUK>	Software is different to me.
 400 Jul 10 23:55:22 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: well the FSF/RMS says that non-free software should not exist
 401 Jul 10 23:55:36 <BLUG_Fred>	that's quite extreme to me.. there is no longer a choice for people
 402 Jul 10 23:55:52 <BLUG_Fred>	so one could also "decide" that if you're into Free Software you should be into Free Culture
 403 Jul 10 23:56:19 <BLUG_Fred>	Nina obviously thinks it's the same
 404 Jul 10 23:56:31 <BLUG_Fred>	i can't really say, i don't consider myself an artist
 405 Jul 10 23:56:45 <mike_FFSUK>	Luckily, the FSF *aren't* into Free Culture in the sense that the term should be used.
 406 Jul 10 23:56:49 <BLUG_Fred>	and i believe in freedom for people to do what they want as long as they don't bother me ;-)
 407 Jul 10 23:57:24 <mike_FFSUK>	BLUG_Fred, agree.
 408 Jul 10 23:57:53 <mike_FFSUK>	I like to give people the information and opportunity to choose. That's why I like SFD.
 409 Jul 10 23:58:06 <BLUG_Fred>	mike_FFSUK: exactly. you explain and people decide
 410 Jul 10 23:58:30 <BLUG_Fred>	sometimes you explain more than once... still you don't force people into what you think is important/right
 411 Jul 10 23:58:41 <BLUG_Fred>	well i suppose we are done
 412 Jul 10 23:59:04 <mike_FFSUK>	Yes.
 413 Jul 10 23:59:14 <BLUG_Fred>	i will be on the channel in the upcoming days, so you can come and 'motivate' me to finish that script 
 414 Jul 10 23:59:16 <BLUG_Fred>	:p
 415 Jul 10 23:59:19 <BLUG_Fred>	thanks a lot
 416 Jul 10 23:59:33 <mike_FFSUK>	Good work on the script and good luck on finishing it.
 417 Jul 10 23:59:34 <BLUG_Fred>	have a nice end of Sunday
 418 Jul 10 23:59:42 <mike_FFSUK>	Thanks.
 419 Jul 10 23:59:47 <mike_FFSUK>	Have a nice sleep. :)
 420 Jul 11 00:03:33 <BLUG_Fred>	yep.. past midnight